I AM BACK !!!

[negusm]

As for our health care system, I hope you don't ever have to deal with the consequences of a single decision maker system within which, despite the fact that you might have money to pay for something yourself, if the decision maker says no, you do not get the treatment.

THINK about what you just said. Seriously. You ALREADY have that system. The insurance company determines whether you get treatment based on the amount of money in your wallet. You're always welcome to pay for it yourself. Guess what, you won't unless it's very serious. If it is serious, good luck paying for it on your own.

Read this:
http://www.wingea.com/2009_119_how-long ... tment.html

This is a typical question people from the US ask because the insurance companies have been able to brain-wash people here. Note the responses from the Canadians. They are horrified by our system here.

Personally, I say bring back major medical insurance, and let me pay for my doctor's appointments and the antibiotics needed to ward off my sinus infection. Such insurance will be inexpensive to the consumer and profitable to the insurance company. Allow insurance companies to compete across state lines, and it will get even cheaper.

This can help but it won't do anything to really bring costs down due to the problem you state below with people flooding ERs.

As it is now, it is the "free health care" given to those who supposedly cannot afford it, dispensed through emergency rooms across the country and given to poor citizens and criminal aliens alike that is really overburdening the system and causing prices to spiral out of control. Even here there is an intelligent and reasonable solution. A government backed low interest "credit card" program with which those who cannot afford a doctors visit can go to the doctor's and pay for the visit and their antibiotics, etc.

Yes, the ER care problem is costing everyone a lot of money. Every study shows that if you can get these people into the doctor before needing the ER, we get huge cost savings.

However, I do NOT advocate that illegals be given free health care. You do not want to add another incentive for them to break our laws by coming here. That problem has a different source and solution.

-Mike

[negusm]

Gov. run/takeover of health insurance isn't a good idea - look how well medicare is doing....... almost bankrupt.

First of all, it's not a takeover of the healthcare system. It's reforming the insurance system.

Why do you think Medicare is bankrupt? Its only got OLD people in it! Old people are a bad bet to insure. Of course it will lose money!!!!! How could it NOT???

How do we make Medicare work? We add in YOUNGER people!

There is alot of bad information out there. for instance - 47 mil uninsured is BS, 12 mil of those are illegal criminal aliens and about another 20 mil are young people who elect not to have coverage. And seriously..... do you really think its right to fine someone and put them in jail for not having coverage????! IT is in this bill? how crazy is that.

First, the people that are in good health and elect not to have coverage are really just driving up the cost of their future care. You pay into the plan when you are young to keep the rates low when you get old. Again, if all we have are sick and the elderly getting insurance, you can't spread the costs around. To this I have to agree with the insurance companies. We MUST get everyone into the insurance system. (minus the illegals).

Secondly, think of it like a tax. We jail people for tax evasion. No difference. I wouldn't call that crazy. Also, the senate bill stripped that language out. Now before you go crazy that I said the "T" word. I would say that I ALREADY pay a TAX to the insurance companies of $6k per year. With what my employer kicks in it's probably $8k. So what is the big deal? No health care reform means my tax will go up. I can guarantee that. Pass it, and we might have some hope to drive it down. People that do not make much money will get subsidized. Remember Peter on this board with his swollen hand. He's a classic example why we NEED this bill to pass. He couldn't afford insurance so he wouldn't get it looked at. What happens if it got so bad he lost the hand? Now he can't work. He's now an even BIGGER burden to the system.

We still have great health care in this country, why else would people from other countries come here for it, AWAY from their own countries' gov. run health care!

MYTH! Go find me examples please! I'll find you more from people that were overseas from the US and required treatment. They have some amazing stories about how pathetic our system is here.

ONe big reason is the rationing that goes on. And its already been said by proponents of this bill that "granny" should just take some pills instead of giving her a procedure that could not only take care of the pain, but extend her life. THis is outrageous. How compassionate is that??? Basically, its "your old, so you aren't worth it" Anyone feel like beating the crap out of that politician?

Again. You ALREADY have rationed care! Explain to me how it is not? If the insurance company doesn't want to pay for a procedure, they ration your care. Then if the insurance company deems you a bad risk, they will drop you and now you get nothing.

This is why the Democrats pushed through Medicare so grandma wouldn't get kicked to the gutter when she got sick!

pass tort reform....... ask a doctor how bad his medical mal insurance is.....

Tort reform will save only $5B per year. It's would help but it really is minor.

-Mike

[Sandy]

Man, you guys are the greatest! You really know how to turn on a light in a darkened room, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart!

Mike, listen to Sandy. I was a hospital "Virgin" when this detour in my life came about. I have learned alot. More than alot.

When they pushed your father to leave, if if if if any immediate family member had one tenth of one percent UNeasyness about the prompt exit decession....d not engage into heated words nor such discourse....go directly to the patient intervention center. (Different names in differnt hospitals ~ but you get the jist of it, yes??!!! These people actually work FOR the hospital - - but they are really also on YOUR side. Had you or mom or.... verbalized your concern, they would have fouind a room for your Father. Furthermoere, he would been watched over. there is no need to get angry or rough & tumble. They (I have found) respond in kind when a family member is overly concerned.
Please, if ever again in this scenereo - please calmly and nicely make your feelings known. IF IF IF you are NOT satisfied with what THTAT particular person has to respond to you & yours, then go to the head of whatever department your loved one was in and discuss it.
NEVER go over that little voice in your head, talking to you.

I have been (so far) very lucky at my hospital - in that I have met 100 or so health care givers and have run into only one that I did not like, AND that was ON THE TELEPHONE, from my home.

There are so many many systems to aid & protect & comfort at hospitals, but sometimes the workers are so overloaded, they forget what is available to patient's loved ones. The stress level is off the map, as you can imagine.

If you are not satisfied with one person, seek out another.
I hope your Father is doing well.

My own Father with whom I shared a great life and love, died suddenly at a very youngish 80 & 1 month, of a sudden stroke, moments after awakening at day-break. He was screaming in non-words, making no sence. My Mom called Rescue Squad, but allthough they arrived in 3 minutes, Dad died in my arms. My Mom endurred AND recovered from 6 (YES SIX) heart attacks!!!! Also died at 80 of old age, and dementia.
I have spend many many many hours in hospitals, between both parents, and now myslef. I know my way around.
IF you wanna ask me anything....you have my e-mail. If I can help.

[tfs2121]

As for our health care system, I hope you don't ever have to deal with the consequences of a single decision maker system within which, despite the fact that you might have to money to pay for something yourself, if the decision maker says no, you do not get the treatment.
, etc.

this is what you got now!

Mike i sure hope i dont loose my hand or im coming for you!



i wish i could wright better. this is such a heated topic that i would love to get in on. as most of you know i dont have health care. does anyone know how i get treated when i try to get care?
about a month ago i had a sinus infection with bronchitis at the same time. i was up all night long with a feaver waiting for the urgent care to open at 8am. i didnt want to go to the ER because i knew i could wait. after driving through detroit rush hour traffic i get to the urgent care. ofcorse the first question from the lady at the desk is if i am coverd. i said no. she then tells me that they will only take cash or cheak because the credit card machine was broken! so she sends me back out on the road with 300,000 other detroiters with my feaver and no sleep to get cash or cheak. how dumb? so after my dangerous ride to the bank and back i see the nurse. the nurse informs me the doctor is going to want to take a chest x-ray and it will be another $75. so i asked why? i have never felt liek this and a doctor want to take an x-ray. i didnt break any bones. she says you can check for pneumonia with the x-ray. she also adds that she "knows this doctor and she is going to want to take an x-ray no matter what" WTF! so every one that comes in with a caugh gets humped for another $75.

i guess my point is the system is F'ed up. doctors charge for tulips they dont need to do and give drugs that they are paid to give. my dads aunt is an oncologist at one of the top detroit area hospitals. she is given gift cards from drug companys for no resion at all. hummm i wonder what they want her to do...

i hate health care companys and i hate doctors!

what gives a customer the right to get mad at me when i miss diagnose there car and then want everything for free. but when a doctor miss diagnoses an illness they can charge you again for another visit and more tests!


ok i think im done now. welcome back to Earth Sandy!

[plumkrazy]

what gives a customer the right to get mad at me when i miss diagnose there car and then want everything for free. but when a doctor miss diagnoses an illness they can charge you again for another visit and more tests!

AMEN to that Peter and it has really got worse this last 2 months


Sandy glad to hear you are feeling better

[Sandy]

"what gives a customer the right to get mad at me when i miss diagnose there car and then want everything for free. but when a doctor miss diagnoses an illness they can charge you again for another visit and more tests!"

Peter, this **IS** GOSPEL !!!! As you know, I too was in the car business, (27 years). They, the public treat us like TULIPS (I axctually typed tuluips... and we have to take it ?

I learned this - in the past year & 7 months of this fight, that I am winning (I think..) - Never take an answer that you do not like, as final!
There are so many people in authority, so many patient devoted inside the hospital-groups, you do not have to deal with one person, whom you may not like. Stay calm, and look for options, or others to assist you.

[Sandy]

Thank-You, Plum !!

Peter. as an afterthought....
Sandy woulda said to her:

Miss Bitchy, I would gladly go to get more $$$$ but right now, i am too dizzy due to the fever that I probably have, so I am afraid to drive.
I can be billed at: 123 Main Street, Anytown, Mi. USA 123456

[ProTouringASC]

As for our health care system, I hope you don't ever have to deal with the consequences of a single decision maker system within which, despite the fact that you might have money to pay for something yourself, if the decision maker says no, you do not get the treatment.

THINK about what you just said. Seriously. You ALREADY have that system. The insurance company determines whether you get treatment based on the amount of money in your wallet. You're always welcome to pay for it yourself. Guess what, you won't unless it's very serious. If it is serious, good luck paying for it on your own.

The problem here is that people should already have money in the bank, an active social network that can help when times are tough, and the ability to borrow money for something other than a new SUV, or a vacation they don't need. Instead, we live like there is no tomorrow, and then decide that some government agency should step in and rescue us when it all goes bad. Are we human? Do humans get sick? Can treating that illness be expensive? Well hey, maybe I should save for such times!

Yes, the "average" person cannot save hundreds of thousands of dollars for such emergencies, but the "average" person will not need to as the "average" person will not sustain injuries or diseases that require care that will cost in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Thus, this is where major medical insurance would step in.

If a person still cannot pay their bills, they should have established other avenues long ago. I guarantee that, in the event that we suddenly could not pay for the treatment of my wife's Multiple Sclerosis, my church would quickly step in and help, as would my family and nearly all of my friends.

Lastly, as I said earlier, there should be a government backed loan program so that unexpected bills can be paid. However, when it comes to the people (I witnessed this first hand) who pay for their groceries with their "Freedom Card" (food stamps) and then purchase over $100 in Lottery tickets, they have made their bed and it is time for the government to stop giving them our (that's yours and mine) money.

As for the "insurance reform" bill, the Federal Government has no Constitutional authority to do what it is doing. They are attempting to use the "interstate commerce" rulings to justify their meddling, but in doing so are exposing the fact that they have not allowed the same insurance companies that they are attacking to practice unfettered interstate commerce! Simply allowing insurance companies to compete nationally will lower prices.

Of course you then have the problems associated with the government running any sort of health insurance scheme. Remember, they already run:

The Post Office
Medicare
Medicaid
Social Security
The National Park System
The FBI
The Secret Service
Homeland Security
Welfare
The IRS
NASA
The Interstate Highway System
The EPA
and I could go on...

And NOT ONE of these is run efficiently or effectively! And now you want them to be responsible for your emergency open heart surgery!?!

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

[negusm]

As for our health care system, I hope you don't ever have to deal with the consequences of a single decision maker system within which, despite the fact that you might have money to pay for something yourself, if the decision maker says no, you do not get the treatment.

THINK about what you just said. Seriously. You ALREADY have that system. The insurance company determines whether you get treatment based on the amount of money in your wallet. You're always welcome to pay for it yourself. Guess what, you won't unless it's very serious. If it is serious, good luck paying for it on your own.

The problem here is that people should already have money in the bank, an active social network that can help when times are tough, and the ability to borrow money for something other than a new SUV, or a vacation they don't need. Instead, we live like there is no tomorrow, and then decide that some government agency should step in and rescue us when it all goes bad. Are we human? Do humans get sick? Can treating that illness be expensive? Well hey, maybe I should save for such times!

Yes, the "average" person cannot save hundreds of thousands of dollars for such emergencies, but the "average" person will not need to as the "average" person will not sustain injuries or diseases that require care that will cost in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Thus, this is where major medical insurance would step in.

If a person still cannot pay their bills, they should have established other avenues long ago. I guarantee that, in the event that we suddenly could not pay for the treatment of my wife's Multiple Sclerosis, my church would quickly step in and help, as would my family and nearly all of my friends.

Wow. I'm not even gonna comment on what you said. That's a gem right there.

Lastly, as I said earlier, there should be a government backed loan program so that unexpected bills can be paid. However, when it comes to the people (I witnessed this first hand) who pay for their groceries with their "Freedom Card" (food stamps) and then purchase over $100 in Lottery tickets, they have made their bed and it is time for the government to stop giving them our (that's yours and mine) money.

No way, a loan program could work. You can't avoid bankruptcy when your medical bills go north of $100k. When that "loan" comes due, you'll be right there in bankruptcy court. Strength is in numbers. If you even out the pain for everyone, then we can all afford it. Any other way and only the very lucky and the privileged elite get by.

Yes, there are a bunch of ignorant slobs out there being dumbasses. They are clogging the ER. Either we pull them into the system or we shut them out of it. Right now they get pulled into the system at the very worst time which is when they need the ER. If we don't pull them in sooner, I suppose we could shut them out altogether. That doesn't seem quite right to me.

Of course you then have the problems associated with the government running any sort of health insurance scheme. Remember, they already run:

The Post Office
Medicare
Medicaid
Social Security
The National Park System
The FBI
The Secret Service
Homeland Security
Welfare
The IRS
NASA
The Interstate Highway System
The EPA
and I could go on...

And NOT ONE of these is run efficiently or effectively! And now you want them to be responsible for your emergency open heart surgery!?!

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

Stop thinking this is a takeover of healthcare. It's not. It's insurance reform. As it's shaping up, it is NOT even a takeover of the insurance industry. The best I can hope for is that they get forced to play fairly. The insurance companies who are glorified mafioso pencil pushers are very efficiently screwing us out of money and lives.

The best plan would be for insurance companies to collect premiums only when they make people well again. Then you would see a highly efficient process for healing people. How that would work is beyond me.

-Mike

[ProTouringASC]

No way, a loan program could work. You can't avoid bankruptcy when your medical bills go north of $100k. When that "loan" comes due, you'll be right there in bankruptcy court. Strength is in numbers. If you even out the pain for everyone, then we can all afford it. Any other way and only the very lucky and the privileged elite get by.

Yes, there are a bunch of ignorant slobs out there being dumbasses. They are clogging the ER. Either we pull them into the system or we shut them out of it. Right now they get pulled into the system at the very worst time which is when they need the ER. If we don't pull them in sooner, I suppose we could shut them out altogether. That doesn't seem quite right to me.

What you keep missing is that I keep calling for a reestablishment of major medical insurance. It would be cheap, and it would cover the super expensive treatments. The loans would be for the less expensive things that major medical wouldn't cover.

Beyond this, healthcare probably wouldn't be so messed up if we (people in general) weren't so greedy. Why do I need insurance to pay for a normal doctor's appointment when I go in for a simple sinus infection? Why do I need insurance to pay when I buy the antibiotics to get rid of the simple sinus infection? I don't! But "we" keep pushing for this sort of coverage, and when we get it, many treat it the way they treat every "free" thing, they abuse the hell out of it! Thus, the insurance company starts paying out like mad, and that sends the rates through the roof, and causes them to try to cut corners where they can.

Add to this mess a lack of competition, and they become the tyrannical entities of which you complain. But, if you could switch insurance companies because one is treating you poorly, I bet it wouldn't be long before service gets better. Why? Because the companies with lousy service will start loosing money and they'll have to change their ways or go broke! But, you can't do this. Why, because the VERY GOVERNMENT you want to "reform" the system created the current broken one! They don't need to create some sort of major overhaul, they simply need to open up the entire country to all insurers.

Do you really think that those in Congress are trying in any way to reform the system so as to negative impact or "reel in" the insurance companies? Follow the money my friend, the ones pushing the hardest for much of this reform are the ones who have received the biggest donations from these very insurance companies!

In the end, I hope... I pray that I am wrong, and you are right. Unfortunately, I think it is the other way around, and healthcare in this country is going to become even more cost prohibitive, services will get worse, not better, and we will all come to rue the day that this reform was passed (if it is passed).

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

[Kentennis]

The 'Government' did not create the high cost of medical care, (Which is ranked as 34th best in the world), but rather the capitalistic system did. The AMA is a very powerful lobbying union. YES, the AMA meets the definition of a union. The uncontrolled/uncontrollable costs were created by greed. It is the goal of insurance companies, most of which are controlled and directed by doctors themselves, to create the mazimum profits possible. They do this by LIMITING/MANAGING health care and drug prescriptions. Don't think so? Go to your Dr. and request a full body 'CatScan'!! If you don't have specific symptoms and/or complaints, it ain't a gonna happen. But that's preventative medicine, which is a big part of keeping people healthy, and therefore not needing costly treatments for diseases that get serious before treatment begins. There was a PBS program on health care in other countries. Each country has, what opponents of health care call, 'socialized medicine'. Not 1 person in those 5 countries went bankrupt because of health care costs. Not 1 person interviewed, including politicians that opposed the implementation of reforms, would give their coverage up in favor of the US (non)system. In fact the previous opponents now admit they were wrong.

That program sold me on the idea that we, as a nation, can do a lot better than we are now.

34th best in the world? I believe it. I also believe we can change it for the better. Why do I care since I have the same coverage/costs as my congressman and senator? Because I love my country, its citizens and want future generations to have it better than I did.

[negusm]

What you keep missing is that I keep calling for a reestablishment of major medical insurance. It would be cheap, and it would cover the super expensive treatments. The loans would be for the less expensive things that major medical wouldn't cover.

I hear you. I wouldn't mind an insurance plan that has a $20k deductable as a safety net. Sure $20k would hurt but at least I could dig myself out if I needed too. I could pay for the routine visits...

The problem again is prevention. We would need a system of carrots and sticks to make sure that people go see the doctor on a regular basis. Major medical alone simply won't curb the high cost the poor are putting on the hospitals that pass the ER costs on to us.

Beyond this, healthcare probably wouldn't be so messed up if we (people in general) weren't so greedy. Why do I need insurance to pay for a normal doctor's appointment when I go in for a simple sinus infection? Why do I need insurance to pay when I buy the antibiotics to get rid of the simple sinus infection? I don't! But "we" keep pushing for this sort of coverage, and when we get it, many treat it the way they treat every "free" thing, they abuse the hell out of it! Thus, the insurance company starts paying out like mad, and that sends the rates through the roof, and causes them to try to cut corners where they can.

This has not been the case in any of the other countries who have open access to health care. No one goes to the dr for the fun of it.

Some of that can be curbed if doctor pay is in no way tied to the number of tests they run. Dr pay should be a yearly salary based on their expertise not on the amount of tests they can push through insurance.

Do you really think that those in Congress are trying in any way to reform the system so as to negative impact or "reel in" the insurance companies? Follow the money my friend, the ones pushing the hardest for much of this reform are the ones who have received the biggest donations from these very insurance companies!

Turn that around. The ones pushing against it have gotten FAR more money than the crooks pushing for it. Seems like the legislation is going in the right direction when it is going against the money of big insurance.

In the end, I hope... I pray that I am wrong, and you are right. Unfortunately, I think it is the other way around, and healthcare in this country is going to become even more cost prohibitive, services will get worse, not better, and we will all come to rue the day that this reform was passed (if it is passed).

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

You and me both. That at least we can agree on.

-Mike

[ProTouringASC]

The 'Government' did not create the high cost of medical care, (Which is ranked as 34th best in the world),

No offense, but doesn't that number smell just a little bit of propaganda? If we weren't doing so well (and frankly, I think you'll find we're actually pretty damned good), I could see us ranking behind England, France, Canada, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, and maybe Sweden, but that only puts the US at 8th place. You don't really mean to tell me that you believe that we are truly outranked by, say, Russia, the Netherlands, Turkey, Belgium, Poland, Norway, Austria, Greece, Denmark, Ireland, Finland, Portugal, Czech Republic, Romania, Ukraine, Hungary, Slovakia, Croatia, Italy, China, Brazil, Ecuador, Colombia, Venezuela, and Peru?

No matter how you slice it, the math just doesn't add up!

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

[ProTouringASC]

I hear you. I wouldn't mind an insurance plan that has a $20k deductable as a safety net. Sure $20k would hurt but at least I could dig myself out if I needed too. I could pay for the routine visits...

The problem again is prevention. We would need a system of carrots and sticks to make sure that people go see the doctor on a regular basis. Major medical alone simply won't curb the high cost the poor are putting on the hospitals that pass the ER costs on to us.

The problem is, you can't take away a person's right to be just plain stupid. If I smoke 6 packs of cigarettes a day, never get check ups, drink a 5th a night, and never bother to purchase insurance of any type, is it really societies responsibility to take care of me when I get sick?

I believe I have a right to reap what I sow, and if I sow well, I reap well, and if I sow poorly or not at all, I starve. Now do not think I am being callous here. If you do something stupid and reap the consequences of that stupidity, I feel for you. I also, where I can, want to help you if you are now trying to grow beyond your former stupidity, but I don't think society in general should have to pay for that.

Just so you'll know, I sure have enjoyed chatting about this with you. You have made your points well, and respectfully, and I hope I have done the same in return. I'm in Frederick, MD now, but we will soon be moving to the Oak Ridge/Knoxville, TN area. One day we'll have to meet up for a beer as this is just one aspect of a system that needs a complete overhaul. From taxes to jails, our system is broken, and I bet we could knock back a few while setting forth plans for its overhaul! Hmmm... they probably wouldn't listen to us though...

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

[negusm]

The 'Government' did not create the high cost of medical care, (Which is ranked as 34th best in the world),

No offense, but doesn't that number smell just a little bit of propaganda? If we weren't doing so well (and frankly, I think you'll find we're actually pretty damned good), I could see us ranking behind England, France, Canada, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, and maybe Sweden, but that only puts the US at 8th place. You don't really mean to tell me that you believe that we are truly outranked by, say, Russia, the Netherlands, Turkey, Belgium, Poland, Norway, Austria, Greece, Denmark, Ireland, Finland, Portugal, Czech Republic, Romania, Ukraine, Hungary, Slovakia, Croatia, Italy, China, Brazil, Ecuador, Colombia, Venezuela, and Peru?

No matter how you slice it, the math just doesn't add up!

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

Here's a guy from the Czech Republic...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mL2gGQIc1w

-Mike