Can you believe the nerve of this?

[Sandy]

Japanese - while surprised by Toyota's quality problems - have voiced similar suspicions and wonder if the timing of Toyota's woes have anything to do with it overtaking GM as the world's biggest automaker in 2008. Some see a new wave of Japan-bashing that periodically cropped up in the '80s during Japan's rapid expansion into the U.S. market.

Today's headline, above.

No, Sir, it's the fact that Toyopet builds cheap crappy cars!

My next door neighbor chidded me for buying a Town Car in 2003, when he bought some model Lexus. (They all look like a bar of Ivory Soap, on wheels, to me). To date, I have driven him to the local train statiopn 6 times in 7 years. He has gone back to his selling dealer that many times (7) for "Suggested" fixes, out & out recalls and other no longer under warrantee coverage.
I, on the other hand, have yet to encounter my FIRST problem with my Town Car. He knows this fact. Still swears by his Lexus! Now, his Lexus is included under the new steering recall, along with Camrys. Still swears by Lexis. He must be under some kind of mind control.

[Kentennis]

They are. They abandoned American goods and now they have to believe they bought 'good' stuff. I owned 1 Honda. It was a piece of crap and an expensive nightmare to work on. So far:

1979 Suburban 4 x 4. Bought in 1982. Still have it. 418,000 miles. Heads never been off the engine. I use it to pull tree stumps.

1993 Ford Escort wagon. Bought new 10-92, wife drove it till 1-2004. 181,000 trouble free miles and still looked modern and new. In and out. Reaired the A/C once and the idler pulley was replaced. 2 sets of tires. 1 set of brakes. Still on the road and still looks good.

2004 Escape. Bought it in 12-03 new. Over 50,000 trouble free miles. Done nothing but change oil and put gas in it.

1997 Expedition. Bought in 2001 with 72K on it. Drove it till 1-2007 when I gave it to my wife's daughter in NY. No problems ever. Everything still works. In fact I offered her a low mileage 2004 Ford Ranger Edge for it and she refused. Got 22.5-24.9 MPG on trips and 17 city. Looks and drives like brand new.

2007 Ford F150. Bought new 12-2006. They had to replace the entire rear end assembly to get rid of annoying vibration. The rear end was MADE IN JAPAN according to Ford.

They can keep their foreign crap. The annoying thing is that the countries we import from won't accept our exports. And the balance of trade deficit is contributing to the fall of our economy a lot more than people think. And the Chinese made goods are junk. Pure and simple.

[Sandy]

But, why would Americans.....abandon American made goods?

[KHummel66]

They haven't. Camrys are made in America in Georgetown. KY; by Americans being paid in USDollars; and sold in dealerships owned by Americans employing Americans selling and repairing the cars. Be careful when you say those cars are junk - you are actually critizing American workers as very few sold in the US are actully imported from Japan.

And let's not fool ourselves about all the 'American made' Ford's, GM's, and Chysler's that are really made in Canada and Mexico and truly imported to the US.

Also don't keep in mind that Chrysler has been a foreign owned company since 1999.

So what exactly is important here? Is it where the company is headquartered or where the vehicle is manufactured? 'American made' isn't as clear cut as people lead on.

[Sandy]

" So what exactly is important here? Is it where the company is headquartered or where the vehicle is manufactured?

Neither, actually. It's the money trail. The $$$ goes back to an American Corporation, -OR- it goes back to a foreign corporation and leaves America. Something to do with Gross nation Product, as well.

Huge mega million sales of Imports (even if made in the USA) has caused the end of Plymouth, Imperial, Oldsmobile and Pontiac.

We only now have 9 brands, Cadillac, Buick & Chevrolet from GM; Lincoln, Mercury & Ford from FoMoCo and Chrysler, Dodge & Jeep from Cry-Co.

They are competing with 31 foreign brands. Now then, lets assume that this is a baseball game with two teams. Team #1 has 9 players who get 9 turns up to bat, and 9 fielders. Versies 31 players, 31 batters & 31 fielders.

Who is gonna win ?

The foreign Corporations are not here to partake, they are here to win. Winning - in this case - means omitting domestic competition, and THAT is US.

80% of the parts that go into foreign cars/trucks are sourced "over there" (wherever "over there" may be) thusly it's a far reaching ripple that drives out corporations in America that make auto related parts, when American cars are beat out in sales by Foreign corporations products, that employ foreign made parts.

Assembling these cars over here - yes that IS better than not, but the profits go back "over there" - making their corporations stronger and ours weaker.

Think about the small hand held radios, telephones, etc. Way back in the 70's they were all made here, by American Corps. Now? Now there are NONE. Look at the brands - there are no American brands. We are out of that manufacturing sector.

One by one - we are losing ! Electronics, Telecommunications, and soon vehicles. When that happens, we will have a full scare depression.

We (America) are NOT allowed to build, own or manufacture consumer goods in Japan. Why do you think that is ?

We can (& DO) sell our brands of cars in Japan - but....they must be displayed WITH Japanese cars and the Japanese cars must be promenant in the showroom and the dealers are not allowed to sell 1 American car until they sell 5 Japanesse cars! Did you know that?

So, they will sell 15 Hondas, and then they can sell 3 American cars.
Do you know this..... In Japan one cannot buy a car, UNLESS they first purchase a parking space. Parking spaces are ONLY sold to owners of Japanese cars. So, the 1st car a person buys...MUST be Japanese. Only then, can a later car be American.
Imagine if WE did that !!! I can hear the howeling !!!!

In Japan like here, they have to have their cars inspected. Japanese cars have to go once every 4 years. American car have to go yearly. They do so many things to dissuade Japanese people from buying our cars. Do we do that ?

90 outta 100 people when asked - will tell you a Jeep is American and and a Mercedes is German, even if Mercedes owns a chunk of Cry Co.

[Kentennis]

Sandy,

Well put. But the average American doesn't realize that every dollar sent to a foreign entity HAS to be spent here. Eventually. With those 'surplus' dollars they are buying our country right out from under us. The companies, our land, our farms and anything else of value.

You also overlooked the 43% import tax on American made goods in Japan and China's rule: If you want to sell it in China, you must make it entirely in China. And with 1.2 billion people China is a huge market and would be self supporting even if they didn't export to us. In fact this country would be a lot better off without Chinese goods being imported. Then there'd be JOBS!

And the only reason they assemble foreign badged cars here is that there is an import tax on a complete vehicle but not on parts. It's called. "The Profit Motive."

My retirement pay is higher (based on a 40 hour week) than the $14.00- $17.00 that the Honda, Nissan, Kia, Mitsubishi, Hyundai, Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Toyota workers receive. I can't imagine raising a family on $14.00-$17.00 an hour in this day and age.

[Sandy]

I knew a LITTLE of that - but didn't wanna put in ink, that of which I was not 95% sure of, to be on the safe side.

My grandparents somehow, by the grace of God, escaped Nazi Germany, along with other many more family members. When there was a wedding, or a big party, and all gathered at a hall or catering place, every last car in the lot, was American. No Benz, No BMW no thing but American. Mostly Chrysler products. (I grew up on a constant menu of Plymouth Sport Fury Convertibles (Mom) and Imperial LeBarons (Dad).My Dad was proud to be American, and supported this country in any way he could. He is gone now for 24 years, but I am positive he would come back like this if I bought a BMW !
At 80 years old, he marched in the 4th of July parade and held the American Flag for the Pledge! (and) he could curse in German, English, Russsian and Yiddish.

[lightning95sc]

"The easiest way to conquer your enemy is to get him to buy into, and work on YOUR cause."

I know that may be a bit dramatic sounding, but at its core, its dead on accurate.

Chuck

[Sandy]

I get tit. It sounds "sound" - but in real life - is it really do-able ??
Yes, if the "enemy" is willing to work with you, and share the fruits, thereof. If they want the whole pie and only want you to have the crumbs - then..... NO

[ChuckG]

What's more important: jobs or the potential of dividends?

Vizio is headquartered here, sells millions of Chinese-made TVs, and employees a hundred or so Americans--but tens of thousands of Chinese.

WHERE something is made is FAR more important, unless you want high taxes and a large dole.

[Sandy]

What's more important: jobs or the potential of dividends ?

I would say Jobs.

What's more important, A sound and strong Japanese Automobile industry or a sound & strong American Automobile industry ?

[shelbyscarab]

But, why would Americans.....abandon American made goods?

Oh, I could go on for days on this subject...... but in the interest of keeping my blood pressure down, I"m going to scale the comments back.

Many people still have the 70s & 80s view of American cars. Many have never given up the attitude that American cars aren't as good as foreign cars. They WILL not even give them a chance. you know, ignorance is bliss....... When in fact they are just as good.

About the "where is it made" argument that "japean" car owners like to throw out. Well, that only goes so far IMHO. Where does the money go? They and the media (car mags...... this means you car&driver/motorwreck) It does mean something. But, you cannot ignore the fact that japean car manufacturers have a big advantage against the big 3. yea, that. You think it was GM & Chrysler who were bailed out last year? ha. think again.

And the trade with japan/china/korea is absolutely ridiculous - with what American Car Companies have to do to sell a car over there compared with the reverse here. (Sandy explained this well) Heaven forbid anyone is "pro American" anymore..... hell, some would call you racist!

Its really sad that so many American marques are now only a memory. I fear that Chrysler & Dodge may be next.

[Sandy]

I worked for many years, with Chrysler Corp. in various dealerships.

One of the biggest problems was that Cry-Co would sell the rights for "Joe" to open a dealership, any darn place he wanted to. Cry-Co NEEDED the operating $$$ (this is the late 60s). No planning was done as in the popili of a certain area, the overhead that Joe-the-dealer was about to take on, and if there was any chance that he'd be sucessful at THAT location. SOooo, there were too many dealers for too few potential buyers. SOooo, to THAT, began lying, cheating and dirty tactics, to squeeze John Customer into higher payments than he could afford, lying about costs, undhanded tricks, etc, etc, just TRYING to keep the doors open another week!! 'Ya, it was THAT bad.

Customers, also brought out the worst in dealers by shopping shopping shopping shopping shopping price. Every dealer pays the same amouint for an identical car.
But dealers created a false view that they got more cars at less $$$$ because they sold more, blah blah blah...... B.S. Anti Trust Laws

In the end, the customer turned on the dealer and went foreign.
The foreign brands were smarter that Cry-Co as they put no more than 1 of their brands per each county in the USA, making it harder for buyers to shop shop shop shop and put alot, one heck of alot, of emphasis on QUALITY! Treating the customers decently as well as tjhe salemen, who are on the "front line"- as was I, for "only" 30 some odd years.
The customers actually think they can outsmart me. WRONG.

Japan was smart to go the route they did.
Imagine for a moment you were a Cry Co salesperson. You are in
"anytown"....but you share a boundry with "sometown", 2.2 miles away, and on the other side of "sometown" just 2.1 miles away from "sometown, and 4 mikles from anytown and 2 miles for sometown" and 1 mile West is "Northtown" and beyond that is "Westown"EACH has an I.P.C. dealership
(Imperial, Chrysler, Plymouth).
You get in a lovely couple on a Plymouth Fury. they are pretty price concerned. All 4 dealers pay the same amount for the same car.
What can you, as the salesman do to win their sale?
Well you say you'd be honest & polite. YOU LOSE
You say you'd spend alot of time with them and demo ride the car. YOU LOSE.

You say that you'd introduce them to the people in service, the manager, the sales manager and tell jokes & give them coffee. YOU LOSE.

You say you'd write the deal at their offer which is $500 UNDER invoice, take their deposit, shake there had and send them home to call & tell all the family that they bought a new Plymouth. Then............
they come in for delivery, you take them to the sound proof room and the
BIG GUNN takes over and brings the lovely couple outta the eyther coma (they know they bought it dirt cheap, as no other dealer would match it) and whacks 'em over the head with the REAL price!! Now, they are worn out, gonna try & save face with friend & family and drive home that new car. Sandy gets called in and screamed at for making such a terrible error and sometimes gets "fired" on the spot and then the buyers feel terrible........and cough up the $500 needed to make the deal.

IT is & was THAT kinda operation that allowed the puratanical foreign brands to do so well. After all, way back when. in the beginning, who knew if if if they were good cars. They were little, dopy looking tihings, but the sales experience was like dealing with Santa Claus, because they allowed each dealership and its employees to earn a pretty good living, rather stacking dealership upon dealership so the the Corporation could make piles of $$$$ to carry on. Cry-Co Corporation, that be.......

The horse pulls the cart. He does not push it.

GM FORD & CHRYSLER have learned the lesson, but the score is 31 to 9.
There are 9 Domestic brands. There are 31 Imported Brands now selling here.

Ya recall all those Cry Co dealershps that were closed a few months back???

Uh Huah

IMHO, NEW cars should be sold like butter is sold in supermarkets. One price for all. THEN the competition will be for the BEST service
and the best service after the warrantee runs out. THEN the consumer will benefit.
Amen

[negusm]

Sandy, the foreign car dealers do exactly the same high pressure tactics as the domestics do. I have been pressured harder in a Toyota sealership than in any other dealership.

-Mike

[Sandy]

That is becausse I have now been away from the "front line" for a good while. I was not aware of that.

I hated, I deplored roughing up customers. It's what made me get outta it all. Sure, I had some customers that were polished gold stinkers, but at least 45% were decent.

Near the end, I got outta the whore-houses that are all on the interstates and highways, and settled into quiet in-town suburbia Dodge stores and concentrated on commercial accounts. i.e. plumbers, electriciians, jobbers, over-the-road small(er) truckers, selling cab & chassis units and arranging the custom bodies they wanted. It was hard(er) but the repeat business was steller. (and they didn't make a career out of shopping every Dodge dealer in Jersey!!